CCR 079: Sheep Nations with Dan Duval

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THERE ARE MANY VIEWS OF ESCHATOLOGY. Some have studied more than others, but it is clear that the Bible is chalked full of clues and ideas that many who are Bible believing Christians are simply unaware of. The idea of Sheep Nations is one of those topics. Basil and Gonz are joined by Author, Radio host, and Minister, Dan Duval who has uncovered a very interesting aspects of Biblical eschatology, specifically concerning Sheep Nations. In effect, Duval shows that there is a separation that occurs with people who will support the kingdom and people who won’t upon the return of Jesus Christ. The kicker is that they will not necessarily be the glorified believers who will be given new bodies. Rather, it will be the gentiles who are not yet saved. This sounds quite radical, but the argumentation is intriguing nonetheless.

While the discussion begins there, it is quickly derailed as the conversation gets into the Antichrist, and other end times discussions. Dan’s unique experience in deliverance and counseling of folks who have suffered from S.R.A. or D.I.D. has given him a tremendous insight into how the spiritual realm operates in conjunction to the physical. And being informed of these things, Duval brings a lot of knowledge to the table, some that go beyond the topic of Sheep Nations, where the discussion starts.

LINKS:

-Daniel Duval’s website (http://www.bridemovement.com/)

-LOFI Click HereΒ and Save

23 comments… add one
  1. This was the best episode to date! I will be listening again. This episode just seemed to confirm some things I already sort of believed in the back of my mind.

    1. admin

      Thanks Tony! Appreciate the input. Definitely a lot of meat in this episode. We could have gone on forever.

      1. I second that notion!

  2. Linda

    I just posted quite a bunch of writing/thoughts and a couple of links. When I posted I then quickly remembered to copy, but I was copying and almost to top and it posted, but nothing posted and I also did not have what was copied already either πŸ™ I don’t want to try to rethink and do so may I give 2 links and ask you all who want to study and Rightly Divide the Word of Truth and truly want to understand, to review these two links. One is a Revelation Series first of is “The Churches” Rev. 2 & 3.
    http://lionandlambministry.com/index.php?option=com_contushdvideoshare&view=category&catid=20&Itemid=168

    The second is Will the Body of Christ be in The Tribulation – Pastor David
    http://lionandlambministry.com/index.php?Itemid=168&option=com_contushdvideoshare&view=player&catid=15&id=65

    These are from Lion and Lamb Ministry, Pastor David Picos D.D. obviously he can explain things better than me! πŸ™‚ You can also find the Rev. Series and others on YouTube, I highly recommend you listen to these two relevant to this interview and his other teachings, esp. the Five Groups that are spoken about in the NT and Test the Things that are Different. πŸ™‚

    Whenever I forget to copy this happens!! πŸ™

  3. Norm the robot

    Oh man. This episode was a grand slam. It’s like if you took every individual episode of CCR that I have found to be particularly interesting, every great topic you have covered and crammed them all into a single show. I was telling my wife about this episode because our parish priest went over Matthew 25:31–46 at church last week and I was telling her how Dan Duval took that particular parable into a whole new mind blowing direction that had never even occurred to me. Have that guy one a again. In addition to all the good info, you guys have a really good dynamic with him that I have not heard with other guests. Keep up the good work.

    Norm the Robot

    1. Norm YOU are awesome! Thanks for commentary. Meeting Basil and Bonz at the Prophecy Forum Conference was a great experience. We have a lot in common, which we were also discovering during the taping of this program πŸ™‚ On Matthew 25, after the Lord opened my eyes to it I simply could not understand why the church has been missing it on this for so long. The plain reading of the text is really not that confusing! Anyway, for more depth and clarification, be sure to check out the new release Kingdom Government and the Promise of Sheep Nations. Hats off to Gonz on the cover art for that one!

  4. Adam

    Epic interview. So much to like about it. Might just be my interpretation but there seemed to be some cautious anticipation, or perhaps even tension at the start. This element made the interview all the more compelling. But as the interview rolled on There was a meeting of minds on some mind blowing topics. Dan Duval is awesome.

    1. Adam, you are too kind! Thanks for the positive feedback on the interview. It was great fun for me. There is so much to talk about and so little time… Blessings brother!

  5. Sara W

    I haven’t listened yet to this episode yet but I plan to ASAP (I have to listen when I’m driving to and from work). I just wanted to say that you guys do some great work. I love the way you play off each other. Both of you are very relatable and easy to listen to. And by easy, I mean you’re fun, entertaining and yet very informative. Your podcast is one I keep checking everyday to see if there is a new episode posted. Honest! Keep up the good work and may God bless you.

  6. Brian

    The part about how people torture kids to open portals reminded me of a legend in Japan during WWII where the Nazis would experiment on children in an orphanage. They would take one at a time to a separate room and cut off body parts but try to keep them alive and conscious. And what’s more interesting about it is that the orphanage building is said to be haunted today with “ghost” activity. So if those acts opened portals, it would all make sense in that case. But yeah, that’s extremely sick and evil for any human to do.

  7. Que

    Texas, is in fact (not really), the 2nd heaven.

  8. Que

    Btw, Graham Hancock, in his book “Fingerprints of the Gods” mentions the discovery of Antartica long before it’s modern discovery in the 1800’s via various maps dating to the 1500’s, which were based on even earlier maps (Gonz had asked about this issue in a previous episode – Hancock goes into great detail regarding the various lakes and mountain ranges that we now know exist in Antartica via various technological advances in satellite imagery – ground penetrating, etc.)

  9. Que

    Btw, Graham Hancock, in his book “Fingerprints of the Gods” mentions the discovery of Antarctica long before it’s modern discovery in the 1800’s via various maps dating to the 1500’s, which were based on even earlier maps (Gonz had asked about this issue in a previous episode – Hancock goes into great detail regarding the various lakes and mountain ranges that we now know exist in Antarctica via various technological advances in satellite imagery – ground penetrating, etc.)

  10. Gabs

    Man this episode tho, pretty awesome! Such important truths wow no wonder this stuff mind blows the average Christian. Lol

  11. Bessie A. Duval

    Great show! Basil and Gonz I love you guys! you are like the cheece and chong of the Christian world. Not only are you fun to listen to, but you are smart and daring. This interview was like a breath of fresh air. It felt like to me, as if all three of you found a place to talk about stuff that no one wants to talk about. Daniel, God bless you and continue to do what you are doing. Hey, you guys hope you continue to seek God’s truth together. This was an awesome show!!!!

  12. Jon

    I notice more and more as I listen to Canary Cry, as well as the few times I listened to other shows like the Haggman’s or Steve Quayle, that I am coming to think of this group of believers as X Files Christians. I love this show, and you guys are funny and do great interviews, but the whole “cutting edge” Christian angle is becoming it’s own worst enemy. It seems like the more I listen to all of the transhumanism ideas and the wealth of other ideas being promoted on the show, I feel like it is more confusing than beneficial, and the conjectures go from being Biblical to morphing into the movie Blade Runner.

    I can appreciate you guys not wanting to do a show that jsut spouts your own views, but there seems to be no consensus on anything in the “conspiracy” niche of Christianity. Basically, yeah Jesus is going to come back, and maybe before that we will all be cyborgs. I also take note that most believers in the niche end up convincing themselves that there is no Rapture and that we are meant for wrath. The Day of the Lord is the seven year Tribulation. Jesus is going to bring wrath on His own body? The wrath of God is not tantamount to worldly persecution. The Rapture and the second coming are two seperate events, one we go up and meet Him and are changed, the other we come back WITH Him. The judgments after His second coming, He judges all the non believers and they are cast into the lake of fire. So, if he raptures everyone right before He comes back at the second coming and then comes back with us, that means everyone in the flesh unbelieving will be judged and sent to hell. Who goes into the Millennium to populate it? There is not left. The Rapture, logically, can not be the same event as the second coming.

    Chuck Missler gives a huge amount of concrete evidence on this. Yet we have every conspiracy tinted Christian writing a new book on how their theory makes the most sense, and most of them seem to promote the non biblical idea that the body of Christ will be present during the Tribulation. The Tribulation is for Israel to come to Christ and for judgment on the nations, it is not for Christ’s body. I hear so many people say, it is not a divisive issue, but when you start scaring born again Christian’s into thinking that they are going to for some reason face the wrath of God, that bothers me. Jesus Himself told us to pray to escape all these things, but I am sure that there is some eccentric reasoning held by some guy writing a new book who will say that doesn’t mean what we think it means.

    The Rapture really is a divisive issue. It isn’t a salvation issue, but my suggestion, invite Chuck Missler on to the show and have him debate it with any one of your circle of friend. There is so much evidence for it Biblically that I believe it would open a lot of eyes. I hear the subject laughed at on the show and kind of blown off, like, “well, we all know that is just ridiculous, those straight laced Christians that don’t understand”. and it is quickly quashed and smoothed over, like no one wants to touch it. But it should be discussed and debated. I would love to hear the evidence for both sides laid out plainly, instead of the non or post Trib Rapture viewpoint that is normally given on the show.

    1. admin

      Thanks Jon. It’s Gonz here. Let me address the points you bring up.

      “It seems like the more I listen to all of the transhumanism ideas and the wealth of other ideas being promoted on the show, I feel like it is more confusing than beneficial, and the conjectures go from being Biblical to morphing into the movie Blade Runner. I can appreciate you guys not wanting to do a show that jsut spouts your own views, but there seems to be no consensus on anything in the β€œconspiracy” niche of Christianity.”

      There’s no consensus in any corner of Christian thought, theology etc. There are central things that I think are necessary to be labelled Christian, like the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and what that means for humanity. Aside from that, what we are dealing with on our episodes, and many other so called “fringe” shows, is concerning the future. Because we are not clairvoyant or suggesting that we’ve figured out the exact timeline or the outcome (other than the major themes and the undeniable proof that Jesus Christ does return to end this age) we are not able to truly commit to any sort of doctrinal position, and I think that’s the most fruitful position to take (that being said, I do hold a rapture position that is contrary to yours which I will address). Again, we’re talking about the future, and the here and now which is getting more and more bizarre. We aren’t here to push one view over another, especially concerning eschatology. While I do lean towards certain eschatological views based on my studies, I know that ultimately, we won’t know until it goes down. Now here is why it’s still important to discuss these issues. While we do not know the exact way things will play out, whether it be aliens, or cyborgs, or hybrids or whatever the theory might be, it’s important to cover all the bases and understand the various possibilities. I happen to think this is the same thing for the rapture discussion. If we can’t properly understand the various positions on the rapture, we might easily be deceived.

      An example, although it might make some angry, is the discussion about the pre-trib rapture. Let’s say the ONLY interpretation someone understands of the rapture topic is the pre-trib. One of the tenants of pre-trib is that the church will be removed before the Antichrist shows up. Well, what if that doctrine is wrong (which in my studies, I think is, based on the verbiage of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and more)? That would mean that when the Antichrist shows up, they will either A.) not believe him to be the antichrist, or B.) think they missed the rapture. Now I don’t think the Lord would abandon anyone based on their doctrine of the rapture per se. But there may be some who were not good bereans, to be deceived and fall for the antichrist system, the mark, the image etc.

      “I also take note that most believers in the niche end up convincing themselves that there is no Rapture and that we are meant for wrath. The Day of the Lord is the seven year Tribulation. Jesus is going to bring wrath on His own body? The wrath of God is not tantamount to worldly persecution. The Rapture and the second coming are two seperate events, one we go up and meet Him and are changed, the other we come back WITH Him. The judgments after His second coming, He judges all the non believers and they are cast into the lake of fire. So, if he raptures everyone right before He comes back at the second coming and then comes back with us, that means everyone in the flesh unbelieving will be judged and sent to hell. Who goes into the Millennium to populate it? There is not left. The Rapture, logically, can not be the same event as the second coming.”

      I don’t agree with your statement that most consider there is no rapture. The rapture topic is highly debated and I think most folks DO have a position they take on it. When you state “The Day of the Lord is the seven year Tribulation” you are making a statement that I happen to completely disagree with. “Jesus is going to bring wrath on His own body?” No. I hold the pre-wrath position. It is the particular position that I feel is the most sound and Biblical, although I am willing to be wrong, it makes the most sense to me. Check out Alan Kurschner (http://www.alankurschner.com) who is really the guy who has been outspoken about the pre-wrath position. He pointed out in his most recent podcast that in the 25 or so years that the “pre-wrath” position (in the modern incarnation) has been a held view, academics who subscribe to the pre-trib rapture has NEVER done a formal debate with them. This is despite SEVERAL invitations to do so. The biggest names of pre-trib like Tommy Ice, David Reagan, I think even Chuck Missler, have all declined debating the topic. I think Alan is correct in that this is the case because ultimately, the pre-trib view is bankrupt and looks silly when it is put PROPERLY next to the pre-wrath view. But I digress.

      The wrath of God, otherwise labelled the Day of the Lord, is what is contained in the “Second Coming”. When Jesus came the first time, His “first coming” wasn’t a single event. It was an entire lifetime, and in particular a 3.5 year ministry. In the same way, the “second coming” is also a series of events. The wrath of satan, or the antichrist wrath is started at the abomination of desolation, which kicks off the great tribulation. When Jesus says, in Matthew 24, the sun, moon, and star signs…you know when the elect are gathered, and when the Son of Man comes in the clouds…THAT is the beginning of the second coming. And that’s when the Day of the Lord begins. And that’s when the Lord’s wrath begins. This event is the SAME event as described in Revelation 6, between the 6th and 7th seals. If you read Revelation 6:12-13 what does it say? The sun turns black, the moon turns to blood, and the stars fall from the sky. Then what happens? After the 144k are mentioned, an un-numbered multitude appears in heaven. And THEN in Revelation 8, the 7th seal is opened, and thus begins the Lord’s wrath on the wicked with the trumpet and bowl judgments. I don’t know about you, but this is a slam dunk for me. And if you go read 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, it’s consistent to say that the church WILL see the antichrist.

      “Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,” Pre-wrathers are suggesting that the “day” Paul is referring to is the Day of the Lord. If you read verse 1, it’s pretty clear that’s what he’s talking about. And if you read Matthew 24, and Revelation 6, as mentioned above, they echo the same thing. Furthermore, the rapture happens between the 6th and 7th seals, but the Antichrist is thought to be the first seal. The seals are NOT part of God’s wrath. They are the precursors to the second coming. Because remember what the book of Revelation is about…chapter 1 verse 1…”The revelation of Jesus Christ…”!! It’s ALL ABOUT the revealing of Jesus Christ. And the seals are the conditions leading up to the revealing of Christ, it’s not the revealing (second coming) itself!

      Now on the point of “who is left?” well…anyone who doesn’t take the Mark of the Beast, or worship the image, but isn’t saved. If you read Revelation 19, only those who had taken the mark and worshipped the image are killed. And if you read carefully, the rest ARE NOT thrown into the lake of fire. Only the False Prophet and the Beast are thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 19. The rest (who did take the mark and worship the image) are just killed. It’s not until the end of Revelation 20, where those whose names are not found in the book of life are thrown into the Lake of Fire, AFTER the resurrection of the dead. This is also consistent with what Dan Duval states in his recent book. If you listen to this interview again, you will know what I am talking about. Those who don’t take the mark, or the image, but are NOT YET saved will be the nations that will be ruled over by the Lord and the glorified ones (us) during the millennium.

      So to suggest that the rapture and the second coming aren’t back to back events is not correct. I believe they are back to back, but even more specifically, the rapture itself IS what kicks off the second coming. In fact, the battle of Armageddon is one of the last events during the entirety of the second coming/Lord’s wrath, right before the kingdom is established on earth.

      Now, I’m not a scholar and I don’t have it all figured out, but these are the tenants of the pre-wrath position and I thin it makes a HECK of a lot more sense than anything I’ve heard on pre-trib. I would study up on it if I were you. BUT be careful when you read the pre-trib blogs and articles that try to debunk the pre-wrath position. They often mischaracterize or lie about the pre-wrath position in order to try to debunk it. They build straw men. For example, a lot of pre-trib articles that try to debunk pre-wrath will say that pre-wrath teaches the rapture will happen 3/4 of the way into the 7 year great tribulation. That’s incorrect and is a lie. Pre-wrath does not teach that.

      We’ve invited Chuck but he is a busy man. Again, as Alan Kurschner has stated, never once in 25 years of the pre-wrath view being in the world of academic theology has a pre-tribber done a formal debate with a pre-wrath scholar, so I doubt Chuck would be willing to do a debate on it. I would be THRILLED if he would…but so far, Chuck and others haven’t. I love Chuck Missler, but I tend to think that he might be a bit off on this view. Which is ok. As you stated, it’s not a salvation issue. But it’s actually a problem with defining terms. You have a problem with the idea that Christians will be present during the wrath of God, because of how you define the wrath of God. But there are plenty of passages in Matthew 24 and other places that suggest Christians WILL be persecuted by the Antichrist.

      “Immediate after the TRIBULATION of those days, the sun will be darkened etc etc etc” Matthew 24:29
      Jesus is talking about the tribulation brought on by the antichrist. We know this because just a few verses earlier he tells us about the abomination of desolation and the beginning of the wrath of antichrist.

      AND let’s get real. Christians are being persecuted and there is tribulation throughout the world RIGHT NOW, and always have been. The culmination of that will be the wrath of antichrist. But like Jesus says, unless those days are shortened, no flesh should survive. God intervenes to END the wrath of Antichrist, and THEN the Day of the Lord (God’s wrath) begins.

      So I don’t want to turn this into an entire study of pre-wrath, and again, I am willing to be wrong on this, but I have yet to come across information to sway me. Again, I’ve studied Chuck Missler’s interpretation of the pre-trib, but I tend to think it’s got problems. Not that the pre-wrath doesn’t, but all the pieces fit much better in my opinion, and it was the position that was held by the earliest church.

      So just to clarify, I am not post-trib and in fact, post-trib is NOT the pre-wrath. There are some overlaps, but if you hear someone say, “we’re all pre-wrath” they are not being honest because they are not using the title “pre-wrath” in the way it’s properly defined. So…I’ve rambled for far too long here. CCR is NOT post-trib. I happen to be pre-wrath, I have no idea what Basil is, AND we’ve had people who are pre-trib on the program.

      Perhaps this will be the year to tackle this issue full on. πŸ™‚ God Bless in all your studies.

      1. Ramona

        Greetings Gonz.
        Thanks for writing something on the coming of Christ. I have never believed in the Rapture theory and have never really understood Revelation in the context of “Rapture” All this pre- Trib and Post-Trib and Mid Trib, has done nothing but confuse me and then the theory that Christ came in 70 AD [my dad believes]. Reading your article has made more sense, I am going to have to put it in order such as 1-10 or ABCD….. What comes first and when. I am still not clear on this whole thing but reading it over[what you wrote] a couple more times. I am not a stupid person LOL but this is the only part I have a problem with.
        I thank God every day that I know him.
        Blessings and keep up the great work, you have a fresh way of thinking and seeing what the Bible really is and says. From Genesis to Revelation is fascinating, from Angles and demons and giant’s, from what is under the sea to who walks between the heavens and earth and how everything is connected, and you seem to be able to make it understood and connect.
        Blessings and a Great New Year.

  13. Jon

    Thanks for the response, Gonz. I have studied pre Trib, post Trib, Mid Trib, pre Wrath, and I obviously disagree with you on the issue. I respect your opinion, though, and I love Age of Deceit 1 and 2. I think the Rapture issue is far more important than people realize….mainly because, if we are expecting His return at any moment, we are less likely to be sitting around looking for the antichrist, rather we will be talking to people and trying to lead them to the Kingdom. I hold the opposite view, I think pre Wrath takes a giant leap in logic to get there.I will listen to Alan Kurschner, definitely. If you or anyone else is interested, go to http://www.erfministries.com and check out Scott Clarke, he has dozens of excellent videos on the Pre Trib Rapture, he dicusses the problems with the pre Wrath, Post Trib, Mid Trib, and oddly, I feel the same way as you, when it is all laid out, the Pre Trib is the only view that makes any sense. He actually answers the very issues you are talking about concerning pre Wrath.

    It would be a great topic, and I am sure you guys could get Chuck Missler to come on and discuss it. If not Chuck, maybe you could get Scottie and Alan on for a mini debate. I would love to hear you asking him directly about your issues with the pre Trib position, that would make for an excellent show.

    And we are definitely seeing more and more persecution towards Christians, with that statement I totally agree. I love Canary Cry, you guys are always a great listen, and thanks for letting me share my viewpoint.

  14. Jon

    One more link for a great Jack Kelley piece on the different views, he goes into detail.

    http://gracethrufaith.com/end-times-prophecy/rapture-which-rapture/#more-46576

  15. Michael Roqjin

    I can’t find words for your work guys. I just wanna thank you for all this stuff. Especially this episode, the episodes with rob skiba and josh peck. And of courae all the other stuff too. was raised in a christian community but was always on the quest for truth. I nearly lost my faith as I plunged into the new age gnostic stuff. All of you brought me back onto the right path. I live in switzerland and it seems i’m the only around here who’s aware of this stuff.I know the lord has a plan for me to reach the people here on the other side of the globe. I don’t know how exactly to start this whole thing. Since I’m only 22 by now and had a rough time to get know the truth. I’m unemployed right now and I don’t know exactly where to go from here. Please pray for me that the lord will show me the way. I really wish to live in the usa with all of you guys. You are all brothers in faith to me. At the moment there is simply no one I know, who’s ressearching this stuff in my country. I’d love to find someone like me around here I could speak to and start to build a community.
    Be blessed guys <3

  16. Hector Arriaga

    Excellent episode.

  17. Inna

    Great episode! Thank you guys for all of the work you do : )

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