CCR 040: Dr. Michael Heiser Interview

WHAT IS THE DIVINE COUNCIL? Dr. Michael Heiser is the academic editor for the Logos Bible Software. He has a Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages with expertise on Ancient Israel and Egyptology. He’s also the author of the novel The Facade, and he runs several blogs including PaleoBabble, UFO Religions, and he was featured on Chris White’s recent debunkumentary Ancient Aliens Debunked. He also has a podcast called the Naked Bible Podcast. He also runs MEMRA (online institute for ancient languages and Biblical theology). We like to call him “the guy who makes all the stuff we talk about credible.”

In this interview, Dr. Heiser walks us through the Divine Council view of the Bible. Another interview that Dr. Heiser did a couple years ago on the same topic was on View From the Bunker with Derek Gilbert.

The guys also touch on the topic of how the Divine Council relates to the current subject of UFOs and ETs as well as the underlining theological question of how we define God. This interview is full of interesting and fascinating gems based on the Scriptures that you’ve probably read several times.


Dr. Michael Heiser’s main website (

The Divine Council (

Dr. Heiser’s novel “The Facade” (

LECTURES by Dr. Heiser




Genesis 6


32 comments… add one
  1. Arnn

    Thought the vid was six minutes–cliff notes so to speak–it’s an all day seminar sans coffee and bagels! Thanks for sharing guys. Have a blessed 2013!


  2. Sim0n

    What a shame such a great guest with fantastic things to share is so difficult to hear because of poor audio quality. I recommend you take your show more seriously in the technical area…you have important things to share and this is a real ministry. So fix the audio problems during these broadcasts my fine fellows!
    I’ve tried to listen to a few other podcasts with similar issues and had to turn them off because they were of such poor quality. If there is a poor connection then don’t interview till the issues are fixed. If its a Skype thing then reconnect or try a different method perhaps.

    1. we reconnected several times. Sometimes the Skype connection is what it is. There’s not a whole lot we can do except maybe get a stronger internet connection which costs money we don’t really have.

      We do take the quality seriously and I actually made it sound substantially better than what it was when it was raw. If you have any tips on how to improve a Skype connection let us know

      1. how about just calling them via telephone? I know they do that quite a bit on other radio shows, eg coast2coast, infowars, if the connection goes bad. This would work fine if you are both in usa, but i suppose could be problematic if the other person was in another country, unless the call was later in the evening.
        just a thought…

        1. meme

          I was wondering the same thing. I listen to a lot of shows that have call-in guests and they use just a regular telephone. A land line is recommended over cell phone though. Besides the terrible audio the content and guest are terrific. Thanks!

    2. Arnn

      I guess I’m not much of an audiophile, but I’ve not had much problem with the audio quality. I haven’t listened to this episode yet—I’ve been watching the videos and since I’m more visual I must say that the glare from Dr. Heiser’s glasses is most disruptive! Dr. Heiser could you please get some glare proof glasses so I can watch the youtube video? It’s all visual wow and flutter man!

  3. Texcentric

    I use to be an audiophile, but I gave it up. Not that there is anything wrong with it. Being an audiophile is okay as long as you keep your narcissistic attitude to yourself. It’s not like you guys are getting paid to do this. What an ingrate. Dude reminds me of the 23rd & 24th words in John 11:39.

    1. Jim

      I couldn’t hear jack half the time with all the audio distortion, so I’d agree with the original comment if he was referring to clarity.

      1. Robert

        So I guess you are a Reformed Narcissist?

    2. quoting random words from the bible to throw insults at me… well, that’s a new one.
      It’s real nice to know you used to be an audiophile, but it’s sort of a pointless comment, and not sure why you are calling me an audiophile: i just want to hear the episode.
      Perhaps you should consider quoting scripture for the edification and encouragement of others, not for weak attempts to make yourself look clever and spiritual… because the way you use it makes you look hateful and egotistical.
      Just saying, ‘dude’.

  4. Jo

    Oh my gosh, I cant believe you guys brought up the head covering thing. That verse has scared me since I was a little kid. And not to sound stupid but I’m not sure I got the explanation, I’ll have to listen to it again. By the way I thought the sound quality was fine. Geez what does the guy want. Thanks guys. Good show

  5. Will

    I was scratching my head as well if something is wrong with my hearing… I can hear it just fine!
    Good show guys! Wish you can do a 2 part episodes like you did with Rob Skiba 😀

    1. well, when basil and gonz talk it’s crystal clear. When the guest talked it was dropping and distorting out, sometimes it was minor, other times it was major and would repeat for 15 minutes. There was another one that had bad dropout as well – pretty much unlistenable.
      The majority of the episodes are fine, but I’m not sure why people are denying there are audio problems in this episode…maybe they haven’t actually listened or are just chiming in or trolling.
      I’m not asking for cd quality, just the ability to hear the episode in its entirety.

  6. Cheryl

    Thank you, gentlemen, for yet another great episode. I always take away something new to chew on and to study in the Bible and for that I feel truly blessed. Most of us cannot find this level of thought provoking ideas in our local church community and we’ve come to rely on pod casters such as yourselves to keep us expanding our Biblical knowledge and to keep us digging deeper into the Word. Thank you also for the videos, great stuff!

    Many blessings in Christ Jesus!

    1. Cheryl

      Thats very kind of you. Thank you for listening. We’re blessed to have such a sophisticated audience who are on fire for the Lord! Blessings.

      1. Cheryl

        It’s only in a forum such as yours that we are called “sophisticated” as we are generally considered quite odd among mainstream Christianity! So glad to have found online believers who are willing to touch upon the really odd topics while maintaining a well grounded Biblical mindset. If only more would publicly recognize the supernatural aspects of the Bible instead of “sanitizing” them, perhaps many would escape the pitfalls of the false religious movements which offer a twisted view of the supernatural.

        1. Arnn

          Speaking of sophistication who woulda thunk that Micheal Heizer not only has his Phd—he’s a world famous artist on the same level as Robert “Spiral Jetty” Smithson!

          Just seen

          1. Cheryl

            LOL….Thanks for the laughs! (That one’s Heizer not Heiser for those who didn’t notice.)

  7. rowdy

    I appreciated Dr H intro re eschatology and its associated ambiguities. I hold a similar position varying only in that I believe we can be confident that as Christ is so shall we be. understanding that our universal adoption or union with and in the sons communion with the father in the fellowship of the holy spirit, having already been established objectively through the incarnation and ascension of JC, will be realised fully,

    I was struck by a very strong Unitarian theme in Dr H’s material.

    my question to Dr H would be, who is Jesus Christ? is JC “homousios to patri?” of the same being as the father?

    is not the original divine counsel Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

    are we not to interpret ALL THINGS inc the OT through the one in and through and by and for ALL things were created and are sustained?

    I didn’t detect a Christological hermeneutic in Dr H’s presentation.

    Very interesting though…

    1. anne

      Rowdy … why would we even entertain an idea that goes beyond the divine council of the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit?

  8. rowdy

    a couple more points…

    is it really all about us returning to Eden? this is not New Testament.

    Eden is a far cry from the Fathers dream for us. JC doesn’t point us to Eden as our final destination.

    also Dr H seems to argue that GOD was once alone and desperate for companionship, wanting a heavenly and an earthly family. Huh?!

    the logic of such an original perspective is that we are here for GODS entertainment.

    there is a sore need for a reappraisal of these suggestions…

    very interesting though…

    1. Based on the various material of Dr. Heiser’s that I’ve heard so far, I’d say that he does sound like he has a very “Christological Hermeneutic” goin on… (are u in seminary or something…?)

      anyhow, u said: “Eden is a far cry from the Fathers dream for us. JC doesn’t point us to Eden as our final destination”,

      but I’d have to disagree there, cuz I’d say it depends on if you get what he means by returning to “Eden”…

      The whole point is a return to where man and God live together, like in the garden… I happen to believe that the “New Jerusalem” is a literal, physical city that God will have literally built by Himself…

      Jesus doesn’t point to a new heaven, and a new earth? Resurrected, immortal bodies?

      Doesn’t the NT talk about being adopted into the family of God..? All over the place… (But that doesn’t infer that God was once some lonely deity who needed to create us in order to free Himself from his boredom and loneliness…)

      The Family of God, is the Kingdom of God, is the true Israel, is the host of the “saints”, is the Body of Christ, is the same as who will live on Mt. Zion with Him….

  9. rowdy

    not in seminary or something… but thanks for asking…
    Eden? Eden was pre-incarnation / pre-fall where God (Father Son and Holy Spirit) communed with Ad and Eve. Yet this state or condition of humanity relating to a disembodied God was never the goal.
    JC was always going to become human (flesh) because in him becoming like us he could share with us what he knows and always knew (communion) of his father in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

    so what I’m arguing is that Eden, with regard to us, was an early step toward the Fathers will for our adoption into his Sons communion with himself. Eden was never the point. Knowing the Father is the point and because only the son knows the father, the son became flesh in order for our adoption to be complete.

    new Jerusalem new earth ABSOLUTELY!

    but it won’t be like Eden

    we now have one who is bone of our bone, flesh of our flesh who is in face to face communion with the father – one who takes all that he has and shares it with us

    If by christological you mean Dr H mentioned JC then I heard that

    but by christological I’m referring to Jesus Christ as the only reliable logic we have to interpret all things

    I’m writing this on my phone so I’m pressed for efficiency

    when dr h alluded to GOD being a solitary non-relational entity before creation I refute that with no apology

    as an aside

    immortality is a Greek philosophical idea

    it’s not Christian

    take care now


    1. Well… I’d say you’re splitting some rather peripheral theological hairs in there, but no matter…

      obviously the New Heaven and New Earth will very much surpass what Eden was in many regards, but if the “point” of Eden was at least partially to foreshadow what God was looking towards after He concludes human history…? Again I think it comes down to perspective….

      “Immortality” is itself just a rather generic word which can be defined differently under many various philosophical/spiritual perspectives. So yes, Greek philosophy has one concept of immortality, but it is still distinct from the one found in the Bible. The scriptures teach that all will be resurrected, some to everlasting Life, others to everlasting Death….

  10. rowdy

    The “doctrine” (to use an unpopular term) of the trinity is fundamental to our understanding of ALL THINGS

    Yet it has been mostly lost to the modern church in its unpacking of practical life

    Immortality suggests life independent of Christ

    Never shall anything ever attain such an existence

    Whatever view we take of life post mortem must be consistent with who Christ is and what all things are in him

    Remembering that it is not possible for anything to exist in and of itself outside of Christ

    1. Mike

      you really should check out Dr. H’s other work, his dissertation was about the Godhead concept found in the old Testament scriptures (Jewish Binitarianism); he believes the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all one, of the same essence ( the Trinity). You obviously have not studied his other work very closely.

      Immortality only suggests life independent of Christ if that is the way you define immortality. We will live forever in the New Jerusalem because we will have access to the Tree of Life. 1 Corinthians 15:53- “for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on IMMORTALITY.”

      If you study Isaiah 14, and Ezekiel 28 you will find that the motif of Eden was not just a garden. Mt. Zion was in Eden and the Divine Council met on the top of Mt. Zion, in the “sides of the north” or “the heights of Zaphon”.

      Watch this video, it does a great job of comparing Genesis 3, Isaiah 14, and Ezekiel 28; which are all related (Eden, the Holy Mountain, the fallen Cherub cast to the earth/the ground):

      (this channel (Haibane 13)has all of Dr. Heiser’s lectures, scroll down to the title: Jewish Godhead and you will find four lectures relating to his dissertation about the Jewish concept of a Godhead in the Old Testament.)

      1. Mike

        Gonz and Basil, You hit a “Heiser gold-mine”, you got him to talk about prophecy from an angle I have never heard him speak before, and that’s an achievement, believe me, I’m a “Heiserphile”. As you know, he doesn’t like to talk about prophecy very often.

        Best show so far (apart from the audio quality, but what can you do, Skype isn’t perfect.) It was worth the ear squinting. God Bless!!!

        1. Thanks Mike, That’s great coming from a Heiserphile…which I would definitely consider myself one as well. I think that’s why I was able to squeeze out some sort of answer. But it seems like that’s the direction he’s headed with the sequel to the Facade, “the Portent”

          I really like the way he doesn’t tie himself down to any view regarding issues outside of salvation, but still adamant and scholarly in what he does give us.

          Thinking about taking Hebrew with MEMRA.


  11. Loved the Heiser interview – listened almost 3 times! Really hungry for the next show… hint, hint! When should we expect the next podcast fellers?

  12. Jonny

    Great stuff guys, very heavy listening for me, but such interesting view points.

  13. Robert

    Dr. Heiser is the academic behind the videos of Hackumentary maker Chris White-the Gerald Posner of the “Ancient Astronauts” debate. I do not necessarily subscribe that Aliens were responsible for creating the great megaliths around the world but White and Heiser have no credible explanation of how or why they were built based upon what we know of the ancient civilization of the Nile Valley, Sumer, Central America, Malta, etc. Why don’t you try to get Graham Hancock or Robert Bauval or Anthony West on to to “dialogue” with them?

  14. Working my way up the list of podcasts, and got to this one. Have to say, one of the best Heiser interviews I have ever heard.

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